I find it interesting that Republicans (who usually skew more to the right) in this country (US) have to own the darkest parts of 20th century history with comparisons to National Socialists and the Third Reich. Interesting because, among other things, Republicans have almost unanimously been historically supportive of the state of Isreal. Now the brother-in-law "of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is claiming that "there is an anti-Semitic president in America,". Hagi Ben-Artzi stated...
"As a politician, who ran for presidency, he had to hide it, but from time to time, it bursts out from inside," Ben-Artzi said. Netanyahu's office quickly issued a statement saying he "totally disagrees" with the charge from his wife's brother. The charges come in the wake of what many are calling a crisis in U.S.-Israel relations stemming from Israel's announcement -- during a visit to the country by Vice President Joe Biden -- that it would build new housing units in East Jerusalem. The United States responded aggressively to the announcement, calling it an "insult" and pressing the Israelis to change course."
Lost in all of this is the feel-goody sentiment is the fact that the left often acts like it has has cornered the market on tolerance and are too cool by half when it comes to playing nice-nice with minorities. However Isreal's position in the Middle East as a minority surrounded by numerous hostile neighbors somehow doesnt warrant "favored" minority status with this administration. None of this suprises me since Nazism was a phenomenon of the Left and we have the most left-wing presidency in this country since FDR.
TRIVIA QUESTION: For all of you "free-thinkers" out there. Who was the German atheist that first coined the term "anti-Semite"? I can hear it now. B-b-b-but are you sure it wasnt an AGNOSTIC?!
28 comments:
I find it interesting that Republicans (who usually skew more to the right) in this country (US) have to own the darkest parts of 20th century history with comparisons to National Socialists and the Third Reich.
How so?
None of this suprises me since Nazism was a phenomenon of the Left.
Nazism was a right-wing ideology, you can't change history. That does not mean all right-wing ideologies lead to Nazism. It doesn't mean "right" is a dirty word because it happens to have Nazism on that side of the spectrum. It doesn't mean all right-wingers have to hate Israel. RELAX.
By "how so" I mean how can you possible think Republicans have to own Nazism and the Third Reich.
@ ATVLC- This is JD logic and thinking... Be prepared.
How so?
To try and explain it to someone outside the US may prove to be difficult, but let me try to give you a couple of examples to show you what I mean. In 1992, conservative columnist and presidential candidate Pat Buchanan gave his "culture war" speech at the Republican National Convention. Liberal writer Molly Ivins described it by saying...""Many people did not care for Pat Buchanan's speech; it probably sounded better in the original German."
Another example would be at the 1968 convention in which conservative writer William F. Buckley was repeatedly called a "Nazi' by liberal author Gore Vidal.
"Buckley bridled at bullies [we are assured]. But one of the rare times he lost his temper was debating Gore Vidal, who “got under his skin,” says son Chris. When Vidal called Buckley a “crypto-Nazi,” Buckley responded, “Now listen, you queer, you stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I’ll sock you in your goddamn face and you’ll stay plastered.”
These are just 2 examples off of the top of my head but a search engine would lead you to many more "Republicans as Nazis" references.
Nazism was a right-wing ideology, you can't change history
What sources can you cite in which (as I pointed out in an earlier thread), that indicate that conservatism resembles Nazism? Again...
Nazism: (from answers.com) "The ideology and practice of the Nazis, especially the policy of racist nationalism, national expansion, and state control of the economy"
Conservatism (In the US sense of the word): (From the US History encyclopedia) "Among the factions within this movement, traditionalists typically stressed the virtues of order, local custom, and natural law; libertarians promoted limited government, laissez-faire economics, and individual autonomy"
State control of the economy is one of the furthest things from the mind of a conservative. Conservatives stress individualism and personal accountability and achievement, whereas as Nazism attempted to ingrain into the psyches of a new generation via the Hitler Youth that people were subservient to the will of the state whch would be determined by a strong Fuhrer. Link
These are just 2 examples off of the top of my head but a search engine would lead you to many more "Republicans as Nazis" references.
I wonder if those on the right have ever referred to those on the left (or even centrists) as socialists or communists?
"Nazism was a right-wing ideology, you can't change history"
What sources can you cite in which (as I pointed out in an earlier thread), that indicate that conservatism resembles Nazism? Again...
I've been posting on blogs for a few years and I don't think I've ever sworn before but I came close today. If you're trolling you're doing a good job.
I wonder if those on the right have ever referred to those on the left (or even centrists) as socialists or communists?
You might have a point there. However, I would argue that socialists have much in common with the American strain of liberalism than conservatives do with Nazism . Take this example concerning liberal lion of the left, Ted Kennedy....
"Ted Kennedy is and was a socialist – and he actually admitted it on the floor of the Senate Jan. 20, 1995....
Here is how the Kennedy admission came about.
Economist Milton Friedman was testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee in favor of a national constitutional amendment for a balanced budget. Kennedy argued that a requirement for a balanced budget would restrict the federal government's power and its ability to spend – thus, he said, Washington's role in more fairly and equitably distributing wealth, goods and services.
"Senator, socialism hasn't worked in 6,000 years of recorded history," explained Friedman. "Why won't you give up on it?"
Kennedy rose to his feet, according to Nuttle, who attended the hearing, and replied: "It hasn't worked in 6,000 years of recorded history because it didn't have me to run it." Link
Insofar as grasping for straws and looking for a way in which conservatives and Nazis actually do share at least some resemblance, I would put forward that both had a love for country as a central part of their platforms, however National Socialists (as opposed to the INTERNATIONAL ones favored by Stalin/Lenin) combined race with their version of patriotism . Do conservatives also do that? (20th century we're talking here)
(This is going to be a difficult comment to write because of the amount of misunderstanding.)
The author states that Kennedy made this comment on the Senate Floor, yet it also came during a committee hearing. Since when does the Senate hold committee hearings on the Floor?
The link is to the WND which is far from credible.
Bush: "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator"
Would you use this to prove Bush was a dictator?
My next point is this - there are more to being a right wing ideology than just being conservative. And there are more types of conservatism than the one you believe in. As soon as someone mentions the right-wing, you switch to comparing it to your brand of conservationism.
Now, on to your desire to rewrite history and erase the Nazi party as a right wing party.
Let me say this - just because the Nazi party and Neo-nazis are right wing does not mean YOU are a Nazi or like a Nazi. There is a whole spectrum of political ideologies. Like the first guy said "relax". Just because you are left-wing does not mean you're on your way to Communism. Just because you are right-wing does not mean you're on your way to Nazism. There is an entire spectrum of thought,
So relax, unless you're mixing Nationalism with anticommunism, antisocial-liberalism, eugenics and antisemitism, you are not a Nazi.
Now, I've got sixteen books on ideologies here and all sixteen say the Nazi party was far right.
Hitler himself called the Nazi party a right wing party. They meet near every description of aspects of the right wing - from the desire to promote or preserve social order/traditional values - nationalism.
----------------
As an aside - look at the advert on the side of your link.
"Conservative Tshirts - Right Tshirts done right" The woman is wearing a shirt with "Waterboarding instructor" printed on it.
Why do they think conservatives support torture?
Do you support torture?
When is the next flight to Australia?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYymnxoQnf8
Note: To explain Vidal's last hard-to-hear comment, William F. Buckley had been pro-segregation and pro-white supremacy.
My brother-in-law says Netanyahu's brother-in-law is wrong about this.
"None of this suprises me since Nazism was a phenomenon of the Left and we have the most left-wing presidency in this country since FDR."
Man, you're killimg me here. Where in tarnation did you come up with that?
That is one of the worst sophistic arguments I've heard in a while.
Nazism is the ideology.
Nazism was the practice of the Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany and present day proponents of that ideology which are called right wing extremists in the USA.
Nazism politically variety of fascism that incorporates policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies.
In practice, Nazism is a far right form of politics.-----
Fritzsche, Peter. 1998. Germans into Nazis. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press.
Eatwell, Roger, Fascism, A History.
Griffin, Roger. 2000. "Revolution from the Right: Fascism"
Nazism in Germany was a collection of ideologies, concepts, and philosophies designed to establish the myth of Großdeutschland (Greater Germany.)
"TRIVIA QUESTION: For all of you "free-thinkers" out there. Who was the German atheist that first coined the term "anti-Semite"?"
I can indeed. However, it is totally irrelevent. Prejudice against the Jews was alive and well long before a good descriptor was coined to describe it. You might want to look at the year 1086 and the first crusades. The Christians adopted anti-semetism from the Muslims.
To be fair, there are many successful "socialist" countries in Europe. I don't understand the total opposition of socialism by the right in America. After all, an unchecked capitalist society creates a nightmarish oligarchy that squashes the needs and desires of the workers through exploitation.
I'm not really for pure capitalism or pure socialism, but I can see the value in both. It seems that a lot of the arguments against socialism is based on capitalist indoctrination rather than a reasoned comparison of economic systems.
TRIVIA QUESTION: For all of you "free-thinkers" out there. Who was the German atheist that first coined the term "anti-Semite"? I can hear it now. B-b-b-but are you sure it wasnt an AGNOSTIC?!
Wiki isn't helping me. It says this:
"The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile")"
I guess I'm meant to say - B-b-b-but are you sure Moritz Steinschneider wasnt an AGNOSTIC?
Well, don't keep me in suspense.
Thanks for at least taking a stab at it ATVLC, nobody else of the atheist faith did.
"As for anti-Semitism, which is more specific than mere Jew hatred, it's simply not true to say that it was invented by the political right. It was invented by Wilhelm Marr, a German radical, atheist, and leftist. He coined the word, and concept, in his 1879 tract The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism (Der Weg zum Siege des Germanentums über das Judentum). Unlike the old-fashioned Judenhass — Jew hatred — anti-Semitism was modern and scientific, unconcerned with theology. It was progressive! Indeed, Marr hated assimilated Jews more than orthodox ones." Link
Jill, given the fact that neither Tom Daschle nor Dick Gephardt, who were present when Bush made his remark, tried to write a book about it and claim he was serious, then we know it for what it was. A corny Bush joke.
If you would like further evidence that Ted (Admiral Oldsmobile) Kennedy was sympathetic to the extreme far-left of the political spectrum, then look no further than when he reached out to Yuri Andropov to undermine a sitting US president during the Cold War. Link
Both Froggie an Jill have made numerous comments concerning the suppossed right-wing affiliation of the Nazi Party. As someone who's degree is in political science, I'm hardly suprised. I would guesstimate that slightly over half of the poli-sci professors that I had at the university level would agree with your assessment.
I would like to compare the Communist and Nazi parties with the Democrat, Republican and Libertarian parties over a wide variety of metrics and show that the Nazi Party was not only to the left but extremely so.
Before we begin though, 1 question if I may...
On net balance, was FDR to the left or right of the spectrum?
"Both Froggie an Jill have made numerous comments concerning the suppossed right-wing affiliation of the Nazi Party. As someone who's degree is in political science, I'm hardly suprised. I would guesstimate that slightly over half of the poli-sci professors that I had at the university level would agree with your assessment."
How nice that you merely wave off our references and arguments withou a single viable response.
If you have a degree in poly sci, I am the Pope.
You are a fraud.
I earned my mech eng at a school that hd a world class poly sci department and I know how poly scis talk and think and you are not one of them.
Not only that Frogster, but through the PA State Univ system. The institution farthest to the east of you to be precise.
As someone who's degree is in political science,
I created an blogger account just to say this but there is no way in hell that you have a degree in political science. Even if you took a photo of your degree I'd be looking to see if it was photoshopped.
Andy Baby! Welcome to the big show! Now with your blogger account you can comment here and other blogs with impunity. How did you come across this blog if I can ask?
But yes, it's absolutely true.. I do have a BA in Political Science. In the interests of total disclosure, I have about as many credits in Criminal Justice as I do Poli Sci and it was almost like a double major, but they werent accredited to award degrees in CJ so I had to take it in conjunction with another major. Most CJ people majored in Sociology. I thought Politics would be much more interesting and I'm glad I did.
If it's because I argue that the Nazi party was left wing, stay tuned. I'm going to post more about it later.
There is no way, ever, ever that you have a degree in Political Science.... No accredited university. There is no way you have any formal education that is accredited. Like all of your sources, I would really take a look at that. You are trolling with all of this Nazi bullshit. You like the attention.
I wouldnt lie abour something like that Tink. It does seem that to this day, people are morbidly fascinated with Nazis. "As PJ O'Rourke once pointed out when accused of being a Nazi, no woman ever fantasized about being ravished by a liberal....'
Really..... What school did you get a "degree" in political science from then?
East Stroudsburg University. Their website is www.esu.edu
Actually, JD, I did not think that you are lying, to be honest with you. However, what you are saying does not make sense because you do not argue from a very academic position. Meaning that you have difficulty identifying credibility of sources and information. A basic undergrad teaches you this. That is why I doubt it.
My job has taught me one thing when things do not make sense. 1. You do not have all of the information. 2. You have do not have correct information. Or 3. You have purposely been given the wrong information. I checked out the website, and it seems as though this is an accredited institution. While I still do not feel as though this makes sense, I see no choice but to believe you. However, I do have one question. Was this a long time ago that you attended?
Insofar as it "making sense", who was it that said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."?
I think this is a case of such lying and exaggeration for so long. I don't see at all how Nazism can be confused with a right-wing ideology
The problem is you don't even seem to know what right wing and left wing even mean. You always swallow the first piece of propaganda that catches your eye.
JD is always a sucker for propaganda, revisionist history.... This is why it makes no sense. He lacks the critical filter to identify this, and he will continue to argue from his irrational and skewed perspective. Rather than actually learning to read, he would rather do this crap. House of cards. Punchline is is that he really believes his stuff.
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