"Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, a Democrat who has openly criticized the Tea Party, blamed the shooting on "vitriolic rhetoric" of political groups and transmitted by media outlets."When the rhetoric is about hatred, about mistrust of government, about paranoia about how the government operates to try to inflame the public on a daily basis, 24 hours a day," Dupnik said, "it has an impact on people, especially people who have unbalanced personalities to begin with."
Senate Majority Whip Richard Durbin, D-Ill., said Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union" that the Tea Party needs to dial back the rhetoric, citing Palin's May 23, 2010, tweet: "Commonsense Conservatives & lovers of America: Don't Retreat, Instead -- RELOAD!"
"These sorts of things," Durbin said, "I think invite the kind of toxic rhetoric that can lead unstable people to believe this is an acceptable response."
There is no evidence Loughner took action in response to anything said or published by the Tea Party or any other group. If anything, his political views appear muddled and some have described him as "goth" and "left wing."
"You know, his favorite books are the 'Communist Manifesto' and 'Mein Kampf,' " Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, R-Wash., said on "Fox News Sunday". "I think it's important that we recognize that this is an individual that has mental challenges, and we need to act appropriately in dealing with him and making sure that justice prevails here." Link to full article.
It's as predictable as it is unfortunate that when a deranged individual commits such a senseless act of violence that the Stalinist Left will try to utilize the event for political gain. Never mind that the shooter has been described as "left wing" and liberals engage in the same type of "hyperbolic metaphors used for rallying supporters" by utilizing 'target lists' themselves. The important thing in their minds is that they don't let this horrible event go to waste by not leveraging it to their advantage.
40 comments:
However, we can exhale our collective breath; the shooter was an avowed left wing communist whose favorite book was Mein Kamp! No right winger this time.
one radio announcer just said, 'I don't recall anybody on the Right begging that the vitriol be dialed back after Reagan was shot'.
-white
-male
-lives in Arizona
-was a "long haired liberal" until around 2008 and the election of Obama
-described himself as not liberal and not conservative on his M.T.T.S. account in 2009.
-libertarian
-anti-federalist
-OBSESSED with the gold-standard and gold-backed money to the point of interupting class.
-Thought space travel was a fraud. (MTTS 2010 postings)
-called women who have abortions "terrorist murderers" after hearing a poem in class about abortion
-pro-gun
-owns a semi-auto
-Claimed to read Rand and Mein Kampf
-into constitutional idolatry
-targeted a Democratic congresswoman whom the Tea Party vociferously campaigned against.
-Rants about government mind control on youtube
People on both sides need to moderate their rhetoric. Those on the Right have to stop threatening & occasionally carrying out political violence. And those on the Left need to stop pointing out that the Right keeps calling for political violence. And also they need to stop supporting liberal policies because that just gets the Right angry & makes them get out the guns & start waving them around threatening people.
And remember, guns don't kill people. Liberal fascists kill people.
The actions of the murderer were political, of course, but I'd be careful as 'denouncing' the murderer as a leftist and saying the left uses violent words too.
The Right in this country has been overwhelmingly
the users of violent vitriol and gun imagery. If you give examples of the Left using violent vitriol, the Left is just going to give you ten examples of the Right doing the same thing for every one you give. It's not really a game we should play.
The person on Twitter who said he was left wing also said she hadn't seen him seen 2007.
Other people have described him as changing in the years after 2007, cutting his hair and becoming more of a libertarian.
The murderers recent postings (Like his one on Above Top Secret for example) seem to indicate a more anti-government libertarian view.
It's worth noting he was planning to kill a Democratic congresswoman.
targeted a Democratic congresswoman whom the Tea Party vociferously campaigned against
Actually KILLED a Republican federal judge appointed by Bush 41.
Those on the Right have to stop threatening & occasionally carrying out political violence. And those on the Left need to stop pointing out that the Right keeps calling for political violence
I'm not sure what you mean here. What are some examples you could cite of right wing politial violence that has occurred?
"Shortly after news broke of the attempted murder of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., the left-leaning blog Daily Kos was swift to scrub its post from a Tucson writer explaining how the congresswoman was now "dead to me."
One of the blog's diary writers, identifying himself as BoyBlue, had written a post only two days before the shooting titled "My CongressWOMAN voted against Nancy Pelosi! And is now DEAD to me!" (Emphasis his) Link
"One of the last times Loughner and Tierney saw each other, a mutual friend had recently purchased a .22-caliber rifle. Until then, Loughner had never shown much interest in guns, Tierney says. "My friend had just gotten a .22, and Jared kept saying we should go shooting together." But Tierney and the friend who had bought the .22 demurred. "We were sketched out," Tierney says, "and we were like, 'I don't think Jared's a good person to go shooting with.'" That was in February or March 2010. After that, Tierney didn't hear much from Loughner.
Since hearing of the rampage, Tierney has been trying to figure out why Loughner did what he allegedly did. "More chaos, maybe," he says. "I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that." Tierney thinks that Loughner's mindset was like the Joker in the most recent Batman movie: "He fucks things up to fuck shit up, there's no rhyme or reason, he wants to watch the world burn. He probably wanted to take everyone out of their monotonous lives" Link
What are some examples you could cite of right wing politial violence that has occurred?
I guess we're now playing that game Andy talked about. How many do you want?
July 27, 2008—Jim Adkisson shoots and kills two people at a progressive church in Knoxville, Tennessee, wounding two. Adkisson calls it “a symbolic killing” because he really “wanted to kill…every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book,” but was unable to gain access to them.
Now you try and minimize this or find example of recent left-wing violence and then I provide another example of right-wing violence and so on and so on.
You basically cited a nut job.
Is violence part and parcel of the playbook of the Left or of the Right?
It looks like you've chosen the "minimize" path.
You don't think Jared was a "nut job"?
I forgot to link this to support my earlier assertion.
1971 is not very recent.
Minimize? Not at all. The topic of this this thread deals with how the Left, quote, never let a serious crisis (or in this case 'tragedy') go to waste.
1971 is not very recent
But the content of his writings would indicate why Hillary's thesis wasn't released until just after the Clintons left the White House.
Would you like to bet that it's also a primary reason why Obama never released his thesis also?
Obama's thesis?
NBC asked Obama's former professor:
"My recollection is that the paper was an analysis of the evolution of the arms reduction negotiations between the Soviet Union and the United States."
"The course was not a polemical course, it was a course in decision making and how decisions got made... None of the papers in the class were controversial."
"It wasn't a position paper; it was an analysis of decision-making."
Obama's thesis is unlikely to give you anything against him.
Was that from Columbia or Occidental? Neither has been released.
"The fascist movement and regimes (with some minor exceptions) placed a high positive evaluation on violence, emphasizing its necessary crative role as intrinsic to their doctrine of the "new man" " Link
Might this be why Obama urges his supporters to "Argue With Neighbors", and to "Get In Their Face". Link
It's fascism albeit a softer, more happy-face version of it.
"Mobster wisdom tells us never to bring a knife to a gun fight. But what does political wisdom say about bringing a gun to a knife fight?
That’s exactly what Barack Obama said he would do to counter Republican attacks “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night...
The comment drew some laughs and applause. But it also struck a chord with his Republican rival. John McCain’s campaign immediately accused the Democratic candidate of playing the politics of fear." Link
Rush Limbaugh: What if shooter were named Muhammad?
"Just ask yourself this. If the shooter had been a 22-year-old named Muhammad, would we be hearing that Muslim talk radio and the Muslim Internet blamed for it?" the top-rated host asked today. "No, we'd have been told that we can't blame Muslims for the action of one kook."
Link
Your media is messed-up.
You can listen to the mainstream left-wing commentators all day and you won't hear "jokes" about shooting government officials or killing people who disagree with you.
You won't hear :"I tell people don’t kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus -- living fossils -- so we will never forget what these people stood for."
or
"We need somebody to put rat poisoning in Justice Stevens' creme brulee."
You won't hear that it would be great if a newspaper editor, that was on the opposite side of politics, was "lined up against the wall and shot"
You won't hear mainstream Left-wingers says things like this about conservatives:
"I repeat: Should the entire American Left fall over dead tomorrow, I would rejoice, and order pizza to celebrate. They are not my countrymen; they are animals who happen to walk upright and make noises that approximate speech. They are below human. I look forward to seeing each and every one in Hell."
But you do have right-wing radio hosts saying “Let me be the first to say this plainly: these judges deserve to be killed,” and making a web-site with directions to the judges houses. [2009] (including work addresses, photographs, phone numbers and even pointing out anti-truck bomb pylons)
You have right-wing politicians saying things like: "Let's take them out! Let's chase them down!" "Reload!" "Second Amendment Remedies" all while taking as many opportunities to be filmed using guns.
If you think that it's somehow equivalent that Obama said to argue with your neighbours, then you are being disingenuous at best.
This is third-world country stuff. It deserves to be at the fringes of society not the mainstream.
Are you ever going to turn moderation off?
If you're so obsessed with censoring people, can't you delete their comments so at least we can see the censorship going on.
I can't see if I've addressed you "arguing with the neighbors is fascism" assertion.
And now there's this...
"The (Pima County) sheriff (Clarence Dupnik) has been editorializing and politicizing the event since he took the podium to report on the incident. His blaming of radio personalities and bloggers is a pre-emptive strike because Mr. Dupnik knows this tragedy lays at his feet and his office. Six people died on his watch and he could have prevented it. He needs to step up and start apologizing to the families of the victims instead of spinning this event to serve his own political agenda.
Jared Loughner, pronounced by the Sheriff as Lock-ner, saying it was the Polish pronunciation. Of course he meant Scott or Irish but that isn’t the point. The point is he and his office have had previous contact with the alleged assailant in the past and that is how he knows how to pronounce the name.
Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation. My sympathies and my heart goes out to her and the rest of Mr. Loughner’s family. This tragedy must be tearing them up inside wondering if they had done the right things in trying to manage Jared’s obvious mental instability." Link
But is ACTUAL violence anywhere near as condoned as a means to an end by conservatives as it is by far Left?
Sorry, I don't think I understand your question.
If you want some more examples of recent right-wing violence, I can supply them.
If you want more examples of recent mainstream right-wing violent rhetoric, I can supply them.
Mainstream left-wing violence is a thing of the past in your country as it is in mine.
And you mentioned the "far-left" not the mainstream left. If you want to compare violence in the Far-left to violence in the Far-right, I think you'll find far-right violence outweighing far-left violence by an incredible ratio.
But this is about the toxic atmosphere that is swallowing your country. If in my country a politician waved a gun around or talked about killing the opposition he would be regarded as a dangerous lunitic.
You should see the filth I see that DOESN'T get published.
You're right. I should see the filth that doesn't get published.
Then stand back and see the how the amount of absolute hatred to the point of, up to and including, threats of physical violence begin to pile up...
I get a large ammount of hatred and violent threats from right-wingers. For my race, for my sex, for my ideas. If you don't publish it, no-one will know it's there.
-white
-male
-lives in Arizona
-was a "long haired liberal" until around 2008 and the election of Obama
-described himself as not liberal and not conservative on his M.T.T.S. account in 2009.
-libertarian
-anti-federalist
-OBSESSED with the gold-standard and gold-backed money to the point of interupting class.
-Thought space travel was a fraud. (MTTS 2010 postings)
-called women who have abortions "terrorist murderers" after hearing a poem in class about abortion
-pro-gun
-owns a semi-auto
-Claimed to read Rand and Mein Kampf
-into constitutional idolatry
-targeted a Democratic congresswoman whom the Tea Party vociferously campaigned against.
-Rants about government mind control on youtube
- Atheist
You forgot one! I fixed it for you.
I think we have an examle of how the MSM would treat this event if the shooters name was Muhammad. Link
I don't think I understand your question.
If you want some more examples of recent right-wing violence, I can supply them.
If you want more examples of recent mainstream right-wing violent rhetoric, I can supply them
What conservative school of thought as espoused by anyone from Rush Limbaugh to the Old Right to neocons the Family First Party condones acts of violence as an acceptable means to an end?
We both agree that fascists had no problem with violence in this context, don't we?
Mainstream left-wing violence is a thing of the past in your country as it is in mine
Verifiably incorrect as a brief perusal of the belief systems of Ted Kaczynski, William Ayers, and most recently James Jay Lee would prove.
you mentioned the "far-left" not the mainstream left. If you want to compare violence in the Far-left to violence in the Far-right, I think you'll find far-right violence outweighing far-left violence by an incredible ratio
I would beg to differ. Source? Or is it just your opinion at this point?
I get a large ammount of hatred and violent threats from right-wingers. For my race, for my sex, for my ideas. If you don't publish it, no-one will know it's there
What is your blog?
Atheist
You forgot one! I fixed it for you
Het TD, how much would you wager that of all the mass shooting sprees over the last few years that atheists, although they make up about 1% of the population, are highly over represented statistically?
10000 e bucks.
Verifiably incorrect as a brief perusal of the belief systems of Ted Kaczynski, William Ayers, and most recently James Jay Lee would prove.
Only one of those is even from this millennium. How far back do you think the word "recent" means?
I can give you more examples in the last few years of right-wing violence than just murderous gunman Jim David Adkisson, agitated at how "liberals" are "destroying America," or Byron Williams or the gunman John Patrick Bedell. (Those are just some examples from 2008-2010)
How far back do you have to go?
If I said I could give you 20 examples of right-wing violence from 2008-2011, could you give me 20 examples of left-wing violence from the same time period?
I'm betting that you can not make a list that compares.
I can give you more examples in the last few years of right-wing violence than just murderous gunman Jim David Adkisson, agitated at how "liberals" are "destroying America," or Byron Williams or the gunman John Patrick Bedell
Jill,
What conservative school of thought as espoused by anyone from Rush Limbaugh to the Old Right to neocons the Family First Party condones acts of violence as an acceptable means to an end?
We both agree that fascists had no problem with violence in this context, don't we?
More than once you equate silence with approval, like on August 12th 2010 when you took people to task for not denouncing quickly enough the behaviour of same-sex marriage supporters during a 1993 protest.
Now Glen, will you inquire whether other people on this thread will renounce the reprehensible actions and behavior by same sex marraige supporters? Or can I just forget about it being that it's only been brought up now 6 times on this thread and one would think they would have denounced after the first or second time? Can we now assume that we are moving into tacit approval territory on their part if 6 times is not enough?
But you can bring yourself to denounce any of the Right's recent violent rethoric and behavior? How many incidents are you going to ignore before "we are moving into tacit approval territory"?
The Right has not been condemning recent violent rhetoric and behaviour, not even silently condoning, but applauding. When right-wingers made their "Ballot box or bullet box!" speeches, the crowd voiced their approval with cheers and clapping. (Look it up on youtube and you'll see more than one right-wing politician using the phrase to thunderous applause)
We both agree that fascists had no problem with violence in this context, don't we?
I honestly have no idea what you mean by fascists. You used me as an example of "soft fascism" and I disagree with the use of policital violence.
More than once you equate silence with approval, like on August 12th 2010 when you took people to task for not denouncing quickly enough the behaviour of same-sex marriage supporters during a 1993 protest
Given your exhaustive research on the topic, did they even denounce it at all on that thread Jill?
Pity that you didnt notice that in the above commentary that I deplored the attack as a, quote "senseless act of violence". Now I imagine you will predictably try to move the goalposts and claim that I didn't speak out forcefully enough about it.
I honestly have no idea what you mean by fascists
I suggest that you start here.
The Right has not been condemning recent violent rhetoric and behaviour, not even silently condoning, but applauding. When right-wingers made their "Ballot box or bullet box!" speeches, the crowd voiced their approval with cheers and clapping
A google search turned up one video of a lady named Cranbill who ran for the Virgina state legistalure. Here is the video, Link.
She clearly advocates the 'ballot box' over the 'bullet box' in the video. She does mention guns as a response to, quote, "tyranny". Would you argue that one should simply accept tyranny? I think it's clear that she was aligning herself with fans of Thomas Jefferson who once said "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants".
Does that disqualify Jefferson a a valid speaker/writer/politician?
Please note that this is the third time that I am asked you "What conservative school of thought as espoused by anyone from Rush Limbaugh to the Old Right to neocons to the Family First Party condones acts of violence as an acceptable means to an end?"
Think in terms of of historical examples like the one of the fascisti I cited if that helps.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20147e18a5a04970b-popup
Did you get my answer to your question, did Blogger "eat" it or is it being "held back"?
Nope. Resubmit please.
Feel free to check any conservative group that you want.
It would also help if you define how the group is conservative. By what standard in other words.
Please note that this is the third time that I am asked you
And I'll answer you yet again.
If no modern right-wingers refuse to denounce violence and violent rehoric then you would have to say modern right-wingers condone violence as acceptable.
You haven't given an example of recent modern left-wing violence that wasn't denounced by the mainstream left-wing.
There's the difference.
When I said "But you can bring yourself to denounce any of the Right's recent violent rethoric and behavior?", You replied "Pity that you didnt notice that in the above commentary that I deplored the attack as a, quote "senseless act of violence". Now I imagine you will predictably try to move the goalposts and claim that I didn't speak out forcefully enough about it."
Here is a list of some things in this thread that you have not denounced:
Calls to murder liberals.
-"I tell people don’t kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus -- living fossils -- so we will never forget what these people stood for."
-"We need somebody to put rat poisoning in Justice Stevens' creme brulee."
-“Let me be the first to say this plainly: these judges deserve to be killed,” and making a web-site with directions to the judges houses. [2009] (including work addresses, photographs, phone numbers and even pointing out anti-truck bomb pylons)
-etc.
Murdurous right-wing shooting attacks
-murderous gunman Jim David Adkisson, agitated at how "liberals" are "destroying America,"
-Byron Williams or the gunman John Patrick Bedell.
The funny thing about this is when same-sex marriage supporters published a map of anti-same sex marriage addresses, you demanded everyone denounce this. But when I mention a right wing radio host publishing a map to liberals with an actual instruction to kill them, you refuse to denounce it.
In 2009, you wanted all same-sex marriage supporters to denounce a vague threat that one same-sex supporter made. But when a right-winger makes dozens of vague threats, you spin and spin.
If no modern right-wingers refuse to denounce violence and violent rehoric then you would have to say modern right-wingers condone violence as acceptable
But that isn't what I asked at all is it? Leave it to Jill to resort to the Feign Stupidity Method of Internet Argumentation to completely obfuscate the discussion.
I quite clearly asked, multiple times, "What conservative school of thought as espoused by anyone from Rush Limbaugh to the Old Right to neocons to the Family First Party condones acts of violence as an acceptable means to an end?" and you refuse to even examine the question, never mind answer it.
So let me get this straight, you seriously researched the ideologies of Rush Limbaugh, The Old Right, The Family First Party, The Tea Party, Monarchists, Free Market Capitalists and any conservative school of thought to the Right of the political spectrum and found them to be completely wanting insofar as violence being condoned and acceptable if it furthered their cause?
Poppycock. I don't think you even looked. Had you examined the question and found acceptance of such methods acceptable, you would have posted it long ago and you are reduced to changing the question and pointing out dingbats and don't even state what group their political beliefs are representative of.
I'd bet it would be quite interesting to see how you rationalize your intellectual dishonesty in the morning. You probably think youre some sort of Crusader for Truth when in fact youre little more than the Handmaiden to Hypocrisy.
You haven't given an example of recent modern left-wing violence that wasn't denounced by the mainstream left-wing
Meanwhile, I cited the example that Fascists condone violence to further their agenda and had you asked me for another example I would have cited certain leftist, "green" environmentalists who also strongly believe their violence is justified. (Recent example here). I'm still waiting for ONE example from you on the Right.
I couldn't care less that certain members of the quote, "mainstream left-wing" criticized certain actions. If they didn't, they'd be seen as extreme.
Here is a list of some things in this thread that you have not denounced
Mind-bogglingly stupid Jill. Even by your lofty standards. In order to claim the moral high ground here, you would have to cite where you even ONCE spoke out against left-wing practices and in your 13 entries above, the closest you do so is when you state "the Left need to stop pointing out that the Right keeps calling for political violence". Because we all know, it's only the Right that is capable of violence, right Jill?
You also left out that I cited the particular example no fewer than 4 times through a direct question that they refused to answer and then directly asked them to denounce it.
Did you cite this example no more than once and then never ask if I denounce it before weakly attempting to ferret thesome sort of moral high ground?
Bravo Jilly. Repeat after me Apples... Oranges...Apples...Oranges... Apples...Oranges...
In 2009, you wanted all same-sex marriage supporters to denounce a vague threat that one same-sex supporter made. But when a right-winger makes dozens of vague threats, you spin and spin
And this is the piece de resistance.
When someone admits to having spent so many hours, combing through the archive of someone's blog, hoping to trip them up through quote-mining techniques that would make the character portrayed by Cathy Bates in the movie Misery proud, do you still think that ordinary people would find such OCD-like efforts on your behalf to be 'normal'?
I could never do so myself. Such unhinged behavior wouldnt be worth the time and effort personally.
I must say Jill, it has been highly amusing reading your cute, smarmy little screeds over the last couple of days.
However your inability to answer a direct question after it was put to you 3 times was as tiresome on my side as it was evasive on yours.
The entire episode is reminiscent of the whiny ex-girlfriend who always had to get the last word in and for that reason, she is decidedly the ex-girlfriend.
I wish you all the best in your future endeavors. If you have a link to a blog that is solely yours, please post the link here.
In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you confine your 'unique gems of wisdom' to the intellectually dicey, circle-jerk of an echo chamber that you so dearly love and seek validation from and let the adults speak in this particular forum.
Unfortunately Jill, a nutjob,mentally disturbed person has a right to their own opinion where it be right or wrong, left or right. I hardly believe this guy to be politically stable let alone to be in touch reality. He was refused entry into the Army and ranted about government mind control, hardly an ideal campaign volunteer or poster child. The left spins it as Sarah Palin's fault with her comments- I blame Bob Marley with "I shot the sheriff". Maybe a lil' "rage against the machine" or some Bono lyrics as well-
It's as predictable as it is unfortunate that when a deranged individual commits such a senseless act of violence that the Stalinist Left will try to utilize the event for political gain.
Right, the Stalinist Left.
Never mind that the shooter himself in that first link doesn't have a clue what Natural selection is! That's not even artificial selection! That's just some psycho killing people based on his own whims, not selective breeding (artificial selection). Think of animal husbandry That would be artificial selection. An example of that would be dog breeding.
What the guy in the first link did was neither.
So of course, the AIG people will not even try to straighten the matter out by explaining why what that guy did was not natural selection, that he was as mistaken as he was psychotic.
Yep, typical "Stalinist Left"!
JD asked: What are some examples you could cite of right wing politial violence that has occurred?
I found a lovely list for you, JD! As I read through it, I remembered each one. I feel somewhat ashamed at my own capacity to forget and move on. Enjoy.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/another-isolated-incident.html
I can't even read it because the format is too wide.
Pick your favorite example and we'll discuss it.
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