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Thursday, March 4, 2010

The Pink Swastika


Has anyone ever heard of this book? I got into a discussion on another blog and I thought I would post some of the claims that were made over here for discussion. First, let me provide a link for an article by Brian Fischer which brings up the following points.
  • "Ludwig Lenz worked at the Sex Research Institute in Berlin, which was destroyed by Hitler's Brown Shirts in 1933 likely because its records, including 40,000 confessions from members of the Nazi Party, would have exposed the sexual perversions of Nazi leadership. Lenz said that "not ten percent of the men who, in 1933, took the fate of Germany into their hands, were sexually normal."

  • "In fact, the Nazi Party began in a gay bar in Munich, and Ernst Roehm, Hitler's right hand in the early days of Nazism, was well-known for his taste in young boys. William Shirer says in his definitive "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," not only that Roehm was "important in the rise of Hitler," but also "like so many of the early Nazis, (he was) a homosexual."

  • "Hitler's Brown Shirts, the dreaded SA, better known as "Storm Troopers," were the creation of another homosexual, Gerhard Rossbach, and Storm Troopers were almost exclusively homosexual. They also, sadly, comprised most of the leadership of the Hitler Youth, resulting in frequent instances of sexual molestation."

  • "In his book, "The Pink Swastika," Lively exposes a secret homosexual activists don't want you to know about Nazi Germany: that although the Nazis did persecute homosexuals, the homosexuals the Nazis persecuted were almost exclusively the effeminate members of the gay community in Germany, and that much of the mistreatment was administered by masculine homosexuals who despised effeminacy in all its forms. "

Of course these are only a few of the more interesting quotes from the cited article and there are other contained within it as well. I'm not going to state outright that everything cited by the author is 100% true because I would like to discuss this topic with an open mind. I'll ask the first question and inquire if any of the above quotations from Fischer have been proven to be unfounded. Feel free to state your opinions on the matter here as there seems to be no shortage of this type of material available on the internet.




30 comments:

Tracy said...

Interesting. I'd never heard any of this.

In all fairness to homosexuals, I think it would be not be accurate to think that Hilter's viewpoints and perversions are representative of homosexual culture. What I mean is that just about every belief or lifestyle group has at least one sub set of which they are ashamed.

Jill D said...

Making Myths.
Conspiracy theories debunked by Christian professor.
Text of the book, annotaed and corrected.

and to quote wiki:
Erik N. Jensen regards the authors' linkage of homosexuality and Nazism as the recurrence of a "pernicious myth", originating in 1930s attacks on Nazism by Socialists and Communists and "long since dispelled" by "serious scholarship".[3] Jensen sees the book as coming about in "the aftermath of an Oregon measure to repeal gay rights".[3] Dorthe Seifert cites it as a response to increasing awareness of Nazi persecution of homosexuals.[4] Christine L. Mueller argues that the historical record does not support Abrams' assertions.[5]

The book has also been criticized by the Southern Poverty Law Center as untrue.[6]

Ginx said...

Jill's basically right; a lot of this is dated propoganda. There were undoubtedly some homosexuals who were Nazis, but homosexuality did not fit in with the strict Christian values the Nazis were pushing.

Ginx said...

[Which is not to say Nazis are indicative of Christianity as a whole, nor to say they exemplified Christian values. Think Larry Craig...]

tinkbell13 said...

UGH... Once again, because you lack the basic critical filters of an intelligent person, you always fall for any bullshit propaganda that comes your way.

Statistically, let us look at this. Because the number is so large, they cannot survey every member of the planet. So, samples have indicated, and the most generally accepted one, is that 1 out of 10 people are gay. However, it can be argued that it could be 1 in 20. However, this number does not indicate if the person is male or female. So, let us say that 1 in 10 is accurate. At the start of WW2, the Nazis were 420000. You do the math. Statistically, it is of no surprise that they were gay Nazis, it would be expected.

Had you dug a little deeper, you would have been able to contextualize the experience of a gay Nazi. Needless to say, with the Eugenic policies of the Nazis, they lived deeply underground. And, in addition to gay people, all of the so called "marginalized people" were killed as well. This includes the mentally ill (one of the greatest paradoxes of all time), people with disabilties, the elderly, orphans, etc. This is of no surprise.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005261

And, yes the Nazis were openly pushing their Christian agenda. Because I know that you believe that no "practicing Christian" has ever practiced genocide, and you start blubbering about Social Darwinism, I have my eugenics essay ready.

tinkbell13 said...

JD.... There was even Jewish officers for the Nazis. People did what they had to to try to survive the war. There was no sense of order to that world, it was chaos. Everything was upside down, and anything normal had been subverted.

I keep telling you that history is complex. You keep falling for those one sided publications. When you go to look at a book, you need to be more critical of it. Look at the publisher. Is it a reputable, scholarly publishing company? (In Canada, I know if I buy a history book published by Penguin or Harper Collins, I am getting the opinions of experts). Is there one expert, or a group? Because, academics usually work in teams, people with an idiotic axe to grind very rarely have a credible university or a group of experts backing them up.... Is the institution privately or publicly funded? Be weary of privately funded publications that are espousing their opinions... As you seem to enjoy them the most. And, flip to the intro of the book and see who, or what is writing it. Is their credentials listed? Would a politician send their kid to the school? If you will have ever noticed, even politicians know better than to send their kids to private Christian universities.

Learn to see propaganda, learn to be able to see the underlying subtext. From what little I can see here, I can read what craziness the author is getting at. And, you fell for it.

tinkbell13 said...

The publisher is Founders Publishing

http://www.founders-house.com/

They are not as bad as I thought that they would be, however they have zero academic backing or support. They accept submissions from anyone. There are no credentials, academic or otherwise, to be published by them.

Froggie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Froggie said...

JD,

As I have witnessed in the past, you will change your tune in a big hurry if ever one of your kids is gay.

By the way, there is a very high incidence of homophobes actually being latent homosexuals.

Froggie said...

You may want to re-think your motives.

JD Curtis said...

Jill, if it came down to citing Wikipedia as a source or not referencing at all, I would probably choose the latter.

I wouldnt cite the Southern Poverty Law Center either in that they have been widely discredited due to their unflinching, liberal bias. Link

"long since dispelled" by "serious scholarship"

Exactly who or what does said "serious scholarship' consist of?

The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party is a thoroughly researched, eminently readable, demolition of the “gay” myth, symbolized by the pink triangle, that the Nazis were anti-homosexual. The deep roots of homosexuality in the Nazi party are brilliantly exposed . . .”
Dr. Howard Hurwitz, Family Defense Council

"As a Jewish scholar who lost hundreds of her family in the Holocaust, I welcome The Pink Swastika as courageous and timely . . . Lively and Abrams reveal the reigning “gay history” as revisionist and expose the supermale German homosexuals for what they were - Nazi brutes, not Nazi victims.”
Dr. Judith Reisman, Institute for Media Education

And the list goes on and on. I could cite many more.

There were undoubtedly some homosexuals who were Nazis, but homosexuality did not fit in with the strict Christian values the Nazis were pushing

Ginx, would you mind substantiating this statement? Especially the part about the "strict Christian values the Nazis were pushing"? The Nazi's were pagan in their belief system and were seeking to destroy Christianity. Link

JD Curtis said...

Tink, just show me one assertion made by the authors that you can make a substantial case for being incorrect and I'll examine it.

I have witnessed in the past, you will change your tune in a big hurry if ever one of your kids is gay

Froggie, we are discussing history here from 1930's-40's Germany and the leadership of a particular political party at the time. I would imagine that there is not one single person participating in this forum (including yours truly) that does NOT have member(s) of their family that are gay. This isnt a condemnation of a particular sin/lifestyle choice, or whatever you would like to call it. It's examining a period of history in which a group of men plunged the world into the worst war in history. That's all and I think youre reading into this a bit too much.

I have my eugenics essay ready

Outstanding Tink. Now who was Dr Ernst Rubin and what organization's periodical did he write an article for in April of 1933?

Marcus Wellington said...

What a pathetic attempt to smear the National Socialists.

(Which is not to say no-one in the Nazi Party was a fag, with about 3% of the world being homo, chances are someone was, but this is a steaming load of nonsense.)

Frankly, I worry for you if you are willing to swallow this trash.

JD Curtis said...

That's the whole point Marcus. What is the percentage of homosexuals in the world? 2%? 10%? The book argues that the Nazis skewed overwhelmingly gay, especially in their early days in Bavaria.

I'll take the word of someone like journalist William L. Shirer who lived through the entire experience and who's 1,200 page tome The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich sits at home in my collection over somebody who quotes Wikipedia as a reputable source.

Another source that I've come across recently is this one...

"The OSS (the precursor to the Central Intelligence Agency) addressed the reason why so many homosexuals found the Nazi party inviting,

“ this may be due to the fact that they are all fundamentally social outcasts and consequently have a community of interests which tends to make them think and feel more or less alike. In this connection it is interesting to note that homosexuals, too, frequently regard themselves as a special form of creation or as chosen ones whose destiny it is to initiate a new order....The fact that underneath they feel themselves to be different and ostracized from normal social contacts usually makes them easy converts to a new social philosophy which does not discriminate against them. Being among civilization's discontents, they are always willing to take a chance of something new which holds any promise of improving their lot..."

Walter C. Langer. Office of Strategic Services, Washington, D.C. 1941

Froggie said...

JD,
You cited:

"“The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party is a thoroughly researched, eminently readable, demolition of the “gay” myth, symbolized by the pink triangle, that the Nazis were anti-homosexual. The deep roots of homosexuality in the Nazi party are brilliantly exposed . . .”
Dr. Howard Hurwitz, Family Defense Council"

Hurwitz is a rabid anti gay activist. He is not impartial whatsover.

Froggie said...

Here is a link about the history of the book and some interesting details:
http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/06/03/before-the-pink-swastika/

JD Curtis said...

Hurwitz is a rabid anti gay activist

Differentiate between "anti-gay" and "pro-family" in a way that I can understand. What were some of the specific issues that Hurwitz was involved in?

ATVLC said...

Howard Hurwitz? He was on “48 Hours” that aired February 26, 1992.
Look it up. "Rabid anti gay activist" is a fair description.
Anyway, Jesus was gay.

I wouldnt cite the Southern Poverty Law Center either in that they have been widely discredited due to their unflinching, liberal bias.

Which you "prove" with a link to Free Republic... Free Republic! No bias there!

I've noticed you'll use any source as long as it conforms to your biases.
Well, have a nice day in your world were no smear is too great to smear your hated enemies with.

photogr said...

Well it was a good thing we and our allies defeated Nazi Germany no matter what they were.

ATVLC said...

The worst feature of this sort of writing, as Goodrick-Clarke notes at the end of his book, is the manufacture of sources -- "...inaccuracies and wild claims were repeated by each newcomer to the genre until abundant literature existed...." One author writes a book that includes mere rumor or even outright fabrication, and the next author is able to use it as a citation, giving an unmerited cloak of scholarship to his work.
The Pink Swastika is full of rumors about homosexuality of various persons. A man's wife and children mean nothing if some disreputable past author can be cited as a source for an allegation of homosexuality. That Hermann Goering liked exotic clothes is sufficient to brand him homosexual, despite his undoubted devotion to both his wives and his daughter. Rudolph Hess is not saved by his wife and children, nor is Hans Frank. Herschel Grynszpan, the Jewish youth who shot Ernst vom Rath in Paris in 1938, giving the Nazis an excuse for the "Crystal Night" anti-Jewish pogrom, is painted as a homosexual prostitute, even though nothing about homosexuality was ever uncovered or mentioned until his defense attorney used it as a successful ploy to postpone indefinitely his trial for murder
.

tinkbell13 said...

Tink, just show me one assertion made by the authors that you can make a substantial case for being incorrect and I'll examine it.

JD- You are such a stupid doofus. Read what I wrote you moron. You are such a waste, I even gave you a link. And, you will change your tune if someone you love becomes gay. My dog has more depth and insight than you.

Ginx said...

I'm guessing JD is a faggot.

SmartLX said...

This was always going to get ugly, but whoa.

JD Curtis said...

Ginx, why do you use such a culturally insensitive word like "faggot" to speculate on my sexual preference? I thought that good comrades like you on the left of the political spectrum cornered the market in political correctness. Why does it have to be "faggot" Ginx? Why?!

JD Curtis said...

"Jesus was gay"

Right. Since Morton Smith who your article cites as it's source draws from an extra-biblical source, then it's quite apparent that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claim.

The other article that you cite contains numerous errors as well.

1. Please cite the page number from The Pink Swastika in which Herman Goering is identified as a homosexual and not a crossdresser, and

2. Rudolph Hess is not saved by his wife and children

I found this interesting. especially in light of "One of Hitler's most loyal deputies, for example, was Rudolf Hess, who had been imprisoned with Hitler in 1923, ... After their release from prison in 1924, the two enjoyed a close personal relationship that Hess called a "most beautiful human experience," lasting until Hitler's suicide in 1945.

Hess' contemporaries had revealing nicknames for the sensitive, effeminate man, like "Fraulein Hess," "Fraulein Paula," and "Black Emma." Although Hess eventually married - at Hitler's suggestion - his wife later complained that her life with him was much like that of a "convent schoolgirl."

Also..."Many believe that Hess was a homosexual and that him and Hitler engaged in more than a social relationship while in prison. As a result, Rudolf earned the nickname "Fraulein Hess". In spite of the rumors, Hess did marry a woman named Prohl Hess and fathered a single child after much struggling in 1937" Link

Please cite which page states that Hess was a homosexual of admit that your source that you cite is incorrect. Here's the link to the book. Link

Clear these matters up before you post anything else. Welcome to the arena of ideas BTW. :-)

ATVLC said...

I feel dirty after being forced to read this trash.
Hess:
Page 62 of the third edition
Hess, a homosexual who was one of Hitler's closest friends, eventually became the Deputy Fuehrer of the Nazi Party.

In the fourth edition, it's in chapter 2 (pages aren't numbered) and it now reads:
Hess, a homosexual (his marriage notwithstanding) was one of Hitler's closest ...

Goering:
Page 110 of the third edition
Hitler retained all of the homosexual sexual deviants of his inner circle, including Goering, Streicher, Frank, Emile and Weber.

These examples are probably not the only places in the book these people are referred to as homosexual.

Now. Please provide evidence to substantiate the idea that Jesus wasn't homosexual. Or even just provide some evidence that he was heterosexual.

JD Curtis said...

Apparently, the authors of the book must be experiencing delusions along with a number of other historians. From the right wing Christian website called The New York Times...

"As it happens, many sources mention Rudolf Hess as an habitue of the gay subculture of Berlin in the Weimar era. The one author whom Wolf Hess names, Kurt G. W. Ludecke, in his 1938 book, "I Knew Hitler," says (page 586) that "I couldn't quite see the epithet of 'Fraulein,' for he was virility itself." Robert G. L. Waite, in "The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler," 1977, declares (page 235) that "Hitler was closely associated with Ernst Rohm and Rudolf Hess, two practicing homosexuals who were among the very few people with whom he used the familiar du ."

And the Italian gay activist Massimo Consoli, in his 1984 "Homocaust" (page 39) cites authors who allude to the homosexuality not just of Rudolf Hess, but also of many of the early Nazi Party leaders, disclosed by "Ernst Testis" in "Das Dritte Reich Stellt Sich Vor" of 1933 (pages 100-12). All these authors wrote wholly independent of the K.G.B. and its eventual efforts at "disinformation." Link.

It seems this misconception that Hess WASNT a homosexual is widespread amongst academia and I wish you luck in your efforts to rewrite history.

Insofar as your citing Morton Smith as a source concerning the alleged homosexuality of Jesus Christ, he appears to be all alone in his field with his *ahem* scholarship.

"Follow this, if you dare: The "Secret Mark" passages are scribbles penned in the endpapers of a 17th century book. They're enclosed in a text that identifies itself as a copy of a letter sent from Clement of Alexandria (circa A.D. 185) to "Theodore." In the letter, Clement identifies "false passages" in the heretical Carpocratian Gospel of Mark. The all-nighter with the eager almost naked youth episode is authentic, claims Clement, because it's included in an expanded Markan Gospel that was revealed to advanced parishioners of the Alexandrine Church.

As you untie this Gordian knot, you realize its plausibility has more holes than Peter's fishing net. Errors, rumor, innuendo and forgery have had 1,600 years to chew on the manuscript's veracity. Adding to the murk is the fact that only Morton Smith has seen the manuscript -- the monastery archives have been mysteriously closed ever since." Link

"Is the Morton Smith discovery authentic?" I asked.

"His position regarding the letter fragments has been entirely discredited in scholastic circles. And ... he had a vested interest in maintaining ... that position."

"You mean ... Morton Smith was gay?"

"Yes."

Ginx said...

Because you're a flaming faggot queen who married a black woman to throw off the gay/racist scent?

Marcus Wellington said...

Marrying a black woman would be miscegenation.
It is something that God forbids.

It was predicted that if the laws were removed and white people could marry a black, soon "gays" would want to marry other "gays".
It is coming true right in front of our eyes.


---------------
Genesis 28:1: "Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan."

Jeremiah 13:23: "Can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you have always done evil."
----------------

REPENT.

JD Curtis said...

Marcus,

Your quote from Jeremiah is taken out of context.

That and my wife is not from Canaan.

Ginx,

Please show me where I have ever posted anything racist on this blog or retract your statement.