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Wednesday, February 10, 2010

Bowden tells church he's ready for heaven


I came across this human interest story this morning and I thought I would put it up. I wasnt the biggest fan of Bobby Bowden while he was the coach of the Florida State Seminoles football program, but after today's article, I'm now a fan of his, even though he recently retired. Here are some excerpts from the cited article...

"Former Florida State University head coach Bobby Bowden unashamedly professed his faith in Jesus Christ to nearly 10,000 people attending morning services at Idlewild Baptist Church in Lutz, Fla., on Super Bowl Sunday.

Bowden, whose 377 Division I wins rank second all-time, gave the Tampa-area Idlewild congregation the same advice he gave his assistant coaches at FSU upon his retirement after the Gator Bowl in January: Never be afraid to speak out for Christ.

As a young boy, Bowden walked forward during an invitation and joined the church. But it wasn't until he held his first assistant coaching position at his alma mater, Howard University (now Samford University), that he understood salvation is by God's grace alone. Bowden remembered a ministry student at the school explaining to him that heaven is a place for sinners who have been saved. Before then, Bowden mistakenly thought good people went to heaven and bad people went to hell.

With an intense but friendly look, Bowden said he finally understood all those years ago that individuals are saved by grace, through faith and trust in Christ alone. He said he realized what Jesus meant in Matthew 9:12 when He said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."

"Darn right, I'm a sinner! I haven't shot anybody lately. I haven't stolen anything lately. But you think things you shouldn't think and you say things you shouldn't say," Bowden said.Citing Psalm 8:5 and Hebrews 2:7, Bowden said God created everyone with a purpose, and their job on earth is to find that purpose and live it out."

Bowden points something out here that is a common misconception among those who arent well-versed in Scripture. That there is this belief out there that goes something like "If I'm just good enough, or I try hard enough to be good, then if there's a Heaven, maybe I'll qualify to get in". Salvation is a free gift in which you place your faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ and you don't EVER have to worry if your doing enough of the right thing. In the link I provided yesterday, you can read for yourself God's plan of salvation so that you can know Him and enjoy a relationship with him in this life as well as the next. One last quote from the above article.....

"Bowden recounted a story about Ronald Reagan a preacher friend once told him. Reagan, then-governor of California and a presidential candidate, invited a group of ministers from all over the country to meet with him in Washington, D.C., in hopes of earning their support.

Bowden's friend, the late D. James Kennedy, pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, had the opportunity to ask Reagan how he would answer if he died that day and God asked him why he deserved to be in heaven.

Reagan reportedly answered that he did not deserve to go to heaven, but that he would be admitted entrance to heaven on the basis of John 3:16 and his own personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Bowden said a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is the answer to the question of why anyone will get to heaven. "That's the answer to the exam. When we stand before the pearly gates, I done gave you the answer," Bowden said.

I just thought it was kind of interesting. One of the people whose writings we've been discussing recently, Dr D. James Kennedy, although he entered the Church Triumphant nearly three years ago is still in the news today and probably will be for some time to come.




34 comments:

GCT said...

It's refreshing to have Xians openly admit that their religion has nothing what-so-ever to do with morality.

Ginx said...

Of course it doesn't have anything to do with your actions, otherwise no Christian COULD get into heaven.

tinkbell13 said...

Yes, because morality is the golden claim. I will say this. At least JD is posting on things that he "knows" firsthand. Rather than trying to argue Dawkins, basic world history, or ID.

JD Curtis said...

Tink, I presented something stated by Berlinski, not my own thoughts.

I wouldnt say that it has nothing to to with morality/one's actions. If someone made a bold profession of faith of how they accepted Christ, and then there was no change at all in their outward behavior, how genuine do you think such a claim could be?

tinkbell13 said...

Yes, I know that you did.

This is all about morality. Your morality dictates your actions, which is why we are saying that it is near impossible that Christians can get into heaven. Their sense of morality is derived from a flawed cesspool. This is a chicken and an egg argument. Spin it around, look at it the opposite way, and you will see what we are trying to tell you.

GCT said...

"If someone made a bold profession of faith of how they accepted Christ, and then there was no change at all in their outward behavior, how genuine do you think such a claim could be?"

Considering that it has nothing to do with getting into heaven, does it matter? Apparently it doesn't matter to god at all so long as one believes the right things, one goes to heaven. It's just like thought crime from 1984. You've reduced your god to Big Brother.

To answer your question, you are making a no true Scotsman argument.

feeno said...

GCT

You make a good point. I don't know how genuine his /her claim would be? But God does.

You guys are missing the point. No one is "good" enough for heaven. And no one can earn a spot up there.

Christians realize this and understand their need for a Savior. Some people think their good enough to get there on their own and don't need a Savior.

Sure there are misguided people who might say some magic words and think they are safe and then live a life that is not consistent with Christ's teachings. But again, only God knows how "genuine" it is.

But to say "apparently God doesn't care either" is just false. This topic is covered by the Apostle Paul as he addresses the church at Rome. He tells how righteousness is obtained by faith alone, however he says "can we go on sinning? He says No, God forbid". He later says this "Now when a man works, his wages aren't credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness". He's saying nobody can earn it with works. Not even Christians.

Late, feeno

JD Curtis said...

Your morality dictates your actions

And I believe that atheists absorb the moral code of the society that they live in whether they absorb the prevelant attitudes that exist in Iran, or Cambodia or the West.

Apparently it doesn't matter to god at all so long as one believes the right things, one goes to heaven. It's just like thought crime from 1984. You've reduced your god to Big Brother

I don't know how you can say that. You're oversimplifying the matter and appying you own definitions here. Tracy mentioned the book of James the other day on her blog. From the 2nd chapter of James we read faith without works is dead. Apparently it's more than just believing "the right things".

Thank you for bringing that up Feeno. It's an appropriate reference at this time.

GCT said...

Feeno,
"I don't know how genuine his /her claim would be? But God does."

And, the point is that god only cares about whether his claim is genuine to believe in god. This is regardless of the person's other actions. Faith gets one into heaven, not being moral. This indicates a total abandonment of the idea of morality being part of Xianity.

"You guys are missing the point. No one is "good" enough for heaven. And no one can earn a spot up there."

No, I got the point just fine. If no one can earn a spot through being moral, then the whole point of Xianity (to be saved) has nothing to do with morality what-so-ever.

JD,
"And I believe that atheists absorb the moral code of the society that they live in whether they absorb the prevelant attitudes that exist in Iran, or Cambodia or the West."

Newsflash, everyone does that. We are all products of our cultures. That's why one can trace the evolution of "Xian morality" over the years and see the move from acceptance of slavery to revulsion of it in relatively recent years (as one example). It's not because Xianity forbids slavery or because Xian morality demands slavery be condemned, but because culture changed and Xianity came along for the ride...and then tried to change history to claim that it was responsible.

"I don't know how you can say that. You're oversimplifying the matter and appying you own definitions here. Tracy mentioned the book of James the other day on her blog. From the 2nd chapter of James we read faith without works is dead. Apparently it's more than just believing "the right things"."

Then, are you claiming that one must both have faith and produce works in order to get into heaven? This contradicts what you wrote above. Will you please choose one method and stick with it? Let me know which one you choose so that I know which brand of Xian I'm dealing with.

JD Curtis said...

the point is that god only cares about whether his claim is genuine to believe in god

Wow! are you reading James or something GCT? Apparently God cares about ALOT more than mere belief in Him because You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble James 2:19 It's not quite as simple as mere "belief" in Him.

are you claiming that one must both have faith and produce works in order to get into heaven?

No. A believer is justified by faith alone. This salvation readily draws one toward service to the Lord. Of course as Feeno has pointed out before, only God truly knows the hearts of men. Would it appear more likely that someone is actually saved and forgiven through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and then goes out and serves the Lord in a couple of different ways, or that they don't do anything at all that shows they are thankful for what Christ has done for us? In the end, we'll find out someday in the next life. In the meantime, we are called to help and serve others.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Faith alone saves you. The person who escapes as if "through the flames" is someone who was saved but their reward in Heaven will be less. Probably because they didnt do too much to further the Kingdom.

photogr said...

I have often heard of a saying. " Heaven is not designed for good people but for forgiven people".

The way I see it. You can be a just moral person and treat others with respect and grace. ( Stoic principles from ancient times). But there is a missing factor. By believing in God and asking for forgiveness of your sinful side, you can be saved from the alternative reward ( opposite of Heaven).

Now some of you here have different views and beliefs ( I hope that you do believe in something). That is fine. More power to you for those beliefs. God forbid that I should denounce your beliefs just because I do not agree with what you believe. That is your right and I am not in a position to judge you for those beliefs.

It is human nature for humans to have a belief and faith in something. Other wise, one would certainly be in a dark and desolate life with no hope for the future.

I would imagine in the ending times of this world, either through self destruction or cosmic explosion; it will be interesting to see whose faith or belief prevails wouldn't you think? Perhaps in the after life we could blog about it and say who was right or who was wrong.

The Maryland Crustacean said...

Great post, J.D.
The only thing that I would add (or perhaps re-emphasize) is that the Gospel is not just for sinners, but for the converted as well.

Even assuming a genuine conversion resulting in progressive sanctification and therefore a positive change in behavior, it is still easy to lose sight that we will never be good enough on our own to merit heaven. Even though are sanctification and being conformed to the image of Christ provide us with some evidence and assurance that our profession of faith is genuine, we can forget that our works will never save us. We will always need Jesus from first to last.

Maybe that is what Bowden came to realize when he was at Howard.

Jerry Bridges put it well when he said he makes a point of "preaching the Gospel to himself daily". That has been a great help to me.

Ginx said...

Well at least now we know why Christians act the way they do: they just ask for forgiveness.

JD, shouldn't you be dragging someone of a different color behind your truck?

Tracy said...

Neither Christians nor atheists nor agnostics can claim that their entire group has acted without blame. Human beings are imperfect; they mess up and hurt one another.

That's the whole point that I appreciate you're making JD. No one is good enough; no one can come before a holy God and be accepted on the basis of their life. The Christian Bible teaches that relationship with God for all eternity is given by God, and He'll even give us the faith to accept this gift if we'll but reach out to Him.

But I do understand the issues raised about what you're calling morality. The Christian Bible also teaches that if a person's faith is real, there will be actions that flow out of this faith. The Bible talks about God giving His followers the gift of Himself, the Holy Spirit, to live in us and empower us to live a lifestyle filled with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

JD Curtis said...

JD, shouldn't you be dragging someone of a different color behind your truck?

Of a different color? Like who? My wife? Or anybody on her entire side of the family? Oh yes...it's true. You should be a fly on the wall during family gatherings. Especially at the ones where wine is served.

tinkbell13 said...

It is human nature for humans to have a belief and faith in something. Other wise, one would certainly be in a dark and desolate life with no hope for the future.

Really? I am pretty hopeful for the future, I love my life, and I have no belief in any type of afterlife. How about just living a good life and enjoying the time that you have here? Not so bad. I think that the point is is that people like this idea of heaven because they cannot, and will not accept the notion that all that they ever amount too is being food for worms. I am fine with it, and I enjoy almost every moment of my short little life.

JD Curtis said...

How about just living a good life and enjoying the time that you have here? Not so bad.

Seems OK. Others tend to mess those thoughts up though.

Ginx said...

Tracy: It's really not about being blameless. I read and hear on a regular basis Christians saying in so many words that everything good and moral comes from God, that the Bible is the ultimate moral authority, and even that atheists cannot be trusted or are less than human.

Christians makes claims about how great their religion is, but many of these claims cannot be verified with any kind of facts. Atheism makes no claims (and really has nothing to offer beyond the dismissal of the idea of gods), yet atheists on the whole commit less crime and have lower divorce rates. It's pretty easy to see the farce of Christian morality when I read posts like this which remind me that Christians really, truly believe in their hearts that they can be forgiven for anything, which explains some of the unforgivable things that go on in the name of Jesus.

Is someone bad because they're Christian? Of course not. If someone good because they're atheist? Of course not. But statistically, if you're a criminal in America, chances are good you're a Christian.

Most popular tattoo in prison? A Cross.

GCT said...

JD,
"A believer is justified by faith alone."

Then morality has nothing to do with it.

photogr,
"The way I see it. You can be a just moral person and treat others with respect and grace. ( Stoic principles from ancient times). But there is a missing factor. By believing in God and asking for forgiveness of your sinful side, you can be saved from the alternative reward ( opposite of Heaven)."

How does belief in god make one a better person? Empirically, it doesn't. We know that Xians are neither better nor worse on average than anyone else from their peer culture group. Why does this not matter to god? This type of theology leads to peaceful activists (like Ghandi) going to hell for not believing in the right things while violent fanatic Xians would go to heaven for believing in the right things.

"It is human nature for humans to have a belief and faith in something. Other wise, one would certainly be in a dark and desolate life with no hope for the future."

On the contrary, like Tink, I see a belief in an afterlife as an impediment to having a good life. If I thought I was going to heaven, I would be longing for death as quickly as possible so that I could get my reward and eternal bliss. That Xians don't do this is a rather obvious contradiction in their beliefs.

"I would imagine in the ending times of this world, either through self destruction or cosmic explosion; it will be interesting to see whose faith or belief prevails wouldn't you think?"

I don't think it will be interesting at all, considering that we will be brain dead and unable to see anything as interesting or not.

MDC,
"Even assuming a genuine conversion resulting in progressive sanctification and therefore a positive change in behavior, it is still easy to lose sight that we will never be good enough on our own to merit heaven."

Which makes it useless and contradictory to do good works, when it is faith alone that saves. Again, it's not about morality, but about thought crime. Why would having a belief in god cause someone to do good things? If one is saved, it's not necessary. If god is changing the person so as to make that person do good things, then god has just violated free will and negated the already shaky free will defense against evil that JD is currently trying to use now in a thread on Tracy's blog. You can't have it both ways.

Tracy,
As Ginx said, it's not about who is better or worse. As I said, no one (non)belief system produces people who are superior morally to others.

I think we also all understand the point about Xian belief that humans are all unworthy and deserving of hell-fire. I don't think, however, that you understand just how abhorrent that thought is to me. How disgusting I find that prospect that a supposedly all-loving god would create humans that he decides should be tortured in hell for all eternity, simply for being born. This is disgusting, vile, anti-human, etc. and we should be filled with revulsion at such a heinous idea. No one deserves eternal torment and torture. No one.

JD Curtis said...

Christians makes claims about how great their religion is, but many of these claims cannot be verified with any kind of facts

Which is precisely what we are going to do here at this site. Cannibalism and infanticide are only 2 metrics brought up so far in which we can compare Christianity to whatever religion or worldview that you like. I will post others in the near future.

statistically, if you're a criminal in America, chances are good you're a Christian

Would you care to guess who is statistically overrepresented in prison populations?

A. Self described "Christians", or
B. People of "no religion"?

Then morality has nothing to do with it

I gave you not only an answer but a detailed answer on my post timestamped @ 4:24. You either didnt read it at all or merely skimmed through it. What we are discussing here is best not summed up in a single-sentense sound byte because it's a bit more profound than that.

tinkbell13 said...

JD- Before you discuss other religions and worldviews, you need to understand them and their histories first. I can provide you with stats if you would like, Christian denominations rank first in all prison population, not sure about Canada.

Seems OK. Others tend to mess those thoughts up though.

Really? I know a high number of people who are atheist. They are happy, peace loving people who would not hurt anyone. Raising their kids, living their lives. My girlfriends children have no idea what heaven is, they have never heard of it. But, she can tell you every planet, plant and animal in any encyclopedia at three years old.

However, I know a high number of Christian people who sit around and whine about how awful they are, how much they need God, and what wonderful things God has done for them. They are some of the most miserable people that I have ever seen. Tormented, self doubting, and apprehensive.

tinkbell13 said...

And, this whole heaven and forgiveness thing is all crap. This concept buffers people from experiencing the full emotion of their actions. You want to live a life that is good- remove that buffer. Feel the full effect of your actions and their implications on others. Soon enough, there will be no more struggle. You just will not do it. Simple.

Ginx and GCT- My favorite Xtian is the one on death row, days away from his execution. Sitting in front of the camera talking about how he has sinned, and he is good with JC now. Love that one.

GCT said...

"Which is precisely what we are going to do here at this site. Cannibalism and infanticide are only 2 metrics brought up so far in which we can compare Christianity to whatever religion or worldview that you like."

Epic fail then. There's no difference between the religions that you have been able to point to and you have completely been unable to separate culture from religion or address the plain fact that Xian morality is derived from culture, not the other way around. You fail horrendously.

"Would you care to guess who is statistically overrepresented in prison populations?"

The studies I've seen have indicated that Xians are well represented (about what they are in the general population) and that atheists are well under-represented. Of course, I have a feeling that you are going to link to the statistics that lump in all the non responses with atheists, thus over-inflating the atheist percentage.

"I gave you not only an answer but a detailed answer on my post timestamped @ 4:24. You either didnt read it at all or merely skimmed through it. What we are discussing here is best not summed up in a single-sentense sound byte because it's a bit more profound than that."

Oh, I read it and the gist is that one is saved by faith alone, not by works. god doesn't care what you do, because works don't get you into heaven. god only cares that you believe the right thing. It's thought crime and big brother and 1984. It's not my fault that your theology has this glaring error. But, I do like your projection. You glance at my comments, you don't even look at the links I provide, and yet you have the temerity to accuse me of doing what you do? Please.

GCT said...

It occurs to me, JD, that if you want to talk about superior Xian morality that you might want to address my comments on hell. I'm willing to go on record saying that no one deserves hell. You and your god are willing to torture people for eternity. How is your stance more moral than mine, or even moral at all?

tinkbell13 said...

Don't worry... He will cite mass murderers. (Never mind the Catholic priests who abuse innocent little children.) They deserve hell.

And, that is the double standard. They really are not Christian when their actions are not good. Christians support the death penalty. After all, the Bible sanctions it, so they are entitled to punish people on earth, as well as their heavenly father in judgement. LOL. Funny, most Christian state (Texas) has the most executions, and highest crime. Gotta love the love of JC.

Tracy said...

GCT - I may not be as well read as you, but even I can understand from discussions we've had in the past that you find the Christian belief in hell abhorrent.

Ginx - I'm sorry that there are Christians who act or talk as if atheists are bad or less than human. I do recognize that there are lots of criminals with cross tattoos and that "jailhouse conversions" to Christianity are extremely common. I think of religion and outward symbols of faith as not bad, but as something about which an individual needs to be cautious; because it's easy to put one's faith in the outward instead of an inward, transforming, relationship with Jesus Christ.

GCT said...

Yeah Tink, it seems the only true Xians are Scotsmen.

Tracy,
"GCT - I may not be as well read as you, but even I can understand from discussions we've had in the past that you find the Christian belief in hell abhorrent."

Yes, I do, and I'm not shy about saying so. I am, however, waiting for a cogent defense of it. Why would an all-loving god create such a place and put people there, especially people that he supposedly loves?

Let me ask you something. If you had divine precognition (infallible) that something terrible would happen to someone you loved if you allowed them to perform some action, would you try to stop them? To be more concrete, maybe you knew that your husband would drown if he were to go swimming on a specific day at a specific time. Would you try and keep him from going swimming at that day and time? I'm guessing that you would. You wouldn't simply shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, it's up to his free will." Yet, this is the same cavalier attitude that is ascribed to god (in regards to evil in this world and to hell in the next) implicitly by hiding behind the shield of free will. Do you think that this is how a loving entity should act? Do you think a loving entity should sit idly by while a woman is raped and claim that he didn't want to do anything to violate the free will of the rapist?

photogr said...

Tink:

"I have no belief in any type of afterlife. How about just living a good life and enjoying the time that you have here? Not so bad."

Then you do believe in leading a good life with moral and ethical values? My belief is about the same while I am alive but I do also want an opportunity to experience what is available in the after life. I don't think my faith wants me to become a puritan or hermit abstaining from all pleasures ( just the sinful ones).

GCT:

You do believe in the Xian beliefs I trust. Would you believe that you would sit idly by and watch a woman be raped? I don't think so and neither would I. Can it be some times by divine intervention from some one that you or I was placed in a position to help the victim. Others may also but they fail to intervene. So who should we blame?

I don't know any thing about hell but some times I think it is here on earth. Perhaps how well we lead a life here is the results we are judged on after death of the flesh. The Christian faith promises a heaven and I like that belief if it is true. I will not know until I face that issue and neither will any one else.

Now this doesn't mean I am going to sit around and wait or beg for death. That sounds a bit odd. Now while I am here, I am going to live a productive life and abstain from crimes and doing others wrong just in case I can enter a Heaven just as you and others will do based on what you or they believe.

GCT said...

photogr,
"You do believe in the Xian beliefs I trust."

Which ones, from which sect? I'm sure some of my beliefs coincide with some beliefs of some Xians, but it's because we share an evolutionary history and culture.

"Would you believe that you would sit idly by and watch a woman be raped?"

I would not, no. But, god does.

"Can it be some times by divine intervention from some one that you or I was placed in a position to help the victim. Others may also but they fail to intervene. So who should we blame?"

If the Xian god actually exists and is omni-max, who else can we blame but god? Not all rape victims have someone there to help (most probably do not), so why not? Additionally, if god can't inspire someone to help, then what good is he?

"The Christian faith promises a heaven and I like that belief if it is true."

Liking a belief doesn't make it true. Besides, why should we have to wait for heaven? What sick god puts people thru suffering just because?

"Now this doesn't mean I am going to sit around and wait or beg for death."

Which doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint. Why wouldn't a Xian long for death if they thought heaven awaited them?

"Now while I am here, I am going to live a productive life and abstain from crimes and doing others wrong just in case I can enter a Heaven just as you and others will do based on what you or they believe."

Just in case you get to go to heaven? Not to sound crass or mean or anything, but is that really a moral reason for doing good? Besides, if JD is right, deeds don't get you into heaven. Belief in the right thing does.

JD Curtis said...

I would not, no. But, god does.

The fact is God does not magically appear and correct a wide variety of circumstances. Your example of rape is an extreme example only made for shock/emotional value. If God did interject himself into every potential instance of rape, then by your same logic, I would expect Him to interject himself from letting my puppy get run over. Why stop with just rape? Why stop with some occurance on a sliding scale between rape and untimely puppy death?

if god can't inspire someone to help, then what good is he?

So you are 100% certain that in the history of mankind that divine intervention has never occurred in which help/circumstances where changed in which an eminent rape was prevented. Since you appeal to science and reason, what evidence did you examine before arriving at your conclusion?

What sick god puts people thru suffering just because?

Again you attack a strawgod. It is a huge leap to go from "suffering exists" to "god puts people thru suffering". What militant atheist writer is this from and what counter arguments did you consider before making up your mind on the matter?

Why wouldn't a Xian long for death if they thought heaven awaited them?

Long for death? Are you advocating that Christians should commit suicide? If not, might you explain this a little better?

Just in case you get to go to heaven? Not to sound crass or mean or anything, but is that really a moral reason for doing good? Besides, if JD is right, deeds don't get you into heaven. Belief in the right thing does

This entire entry is completely wrong from beginning to end. There is nothing incorrect or illogical about photogr's statement. Insofar as you statement about "if JD is right" what else did I say in reference to works? I only want to know if you actually read what I submitted.

GCT said...

"The fact is God does not magically appear and correct a wide variety of circumstances. Your example of rape is an extreme example only made for shock/emotional value. If God did interject himself into every potential instance of rape, then by your same logic, I would expect Him to interject himself from letting my puppy get run over. Why stop with just rape? Why stop with some occurance on a sliding scale between rape and untimely puppy death?"

Objection, already asked and answered.

"So you are 100% certain that in the history of mankind that divine intervention has never occurred in which help/circumstances where changed in which an eminent rape was prevented. Since you appeal to science and reason, what evidence did you examine before arriving at your conclusion?"

I'm about 100% certain that you are either really incapable of reading comprehension or you make these strawmen on purpose. I admit that I can't be 100% certain because there might be a third (or more) option that I haven't thought of yet. Go back and read what I wrote and then try to figure out a response that actually addresses what I wrote.

"Again you attack a strawgod. It is a huge leap to go from "suffering exists" to "god puts people thru suffering"."

It's not a straw god. You posit a god that is omni-max, so this god has the knowledge that suffering occurs, can stop it, abhors it, but still suffering occurs. You got some splainin' to do.

"What militant atheist writer is this from and what counter arguments did you consider before making up your mind on the matter?"

Screw that. Don't blithely dismiss everything I say as simple partisan attacks that are mindless. When you can actually defend your position, you can consider acting smug. Until then you're just acting like an ass.

"Long for death? Are you advocating that Christians should commit suicide? If not, might you explain this a little better?"

It's a rather simple concept, so you'd think a smug genius like yourself could understand it.

"This entire entry is completely wrong from beginning to end."

Then point it out genius.

"There is nothing incorrect or illogical about photogr's statement."

Yeah, because only doing good in order to gain a reward is the most moral action you can do? Or is it the whole "just in case" thing, which god won't see through, right?

"Insofar as you statement about "if JD is right" what else did I say in reference to works? I only want to know if you actually read what I submitted."

Pot, kettle, you know the rest. I did read it, I answered it, and you refuse to deal with it. Get your head out of your smug backside and deal with the objections instead of whining and projecting.

JD Curtis said...

Why stop with just rape? Why stop with some occurance on a sliding scale between rape and untimely puppy death?

You say rape. I'm going to get ticked off at God over something nearly as violent but not as emotionally charged as the word rape. Let's say "violent assualt". People getting beat up. Shouldnt God intervene and stop that as well? Or do you just like throwing around emotionally charged subjects such as "rape" and the sexual assault of children because your arguments are pathetic and you believe that the use of such detestable subject matter improves your position in some way? Answer this question or don't comment at all. Shouldnt God stop violent assault as well?

I admit that I can't be 100% certain because there might be a third (or more) option that I haven't thought of yet

And you also can't be certain because you havent observed every possible scenario in the history of humankind in which the possibility exists that God did affect circumstances and a potential sexual assault was averted.

because only doing good in order to gain a reward is the most moral action you can do?

photogr: "while I am here, I am going to live a productive life and abstain from crimes and doing others wrong just in case I can enter a Heaven"

At what point did photogr state that he was "only doing good in order to gain a reward"? Actually, if you look at his statement, he says nothing about "doing good". He states...

A. He's going to lead a productive life (He will work, pay taxes, raise family, etc.)
B. He's going to abstain from committing crimes (Is photogr not picking your pocket 'doing good'?)
C. He's not going to wrong others (If he minds his own business, is that considered doing good or just not causing a problem?)

None of these things translate to "doing good" which requires specific, directed action on his part.

Note that he 'hopes' to get into eaven, not that he counts on it.

I did read it, I answered it, and you refuse to deal with it

Let's see here, you said "if JD is right, deeds don't get you into heaven. Belief in the right thing does"

So I stated that if my "belief" is just right, I can then go out and commit pre-meditated murder, and sleep with hookers every night of the week and still be A-OK? Is that what I said GCT? If not, what did I state?

GCT said...

"Shouldnt God stop violent assault as well?"

The first time you asked me this question I answered it. Do you have rot in your brain? Yes, god should step in and intervene. That you have to run in fear of the fact that god allows rape and murder and hide behind the idea that it's emotionally charged shows who really has the weak position.

"And you also can't be certain because you havent observed every possible scenario in the history of humankind in which the possibility exists that God did affect circumstances and a potential sexual assault was averted."

I'm leaning more towards you just being stupid. Read what I wrote...I already addressed this. Even if god stepped in once, so what? Does that make god omni-benevolent for stopping one rape? You're an idiot.

"At what point did photogr state that he was "only doing good in order to gain a reward"?"

Reading comprehenshun, ur doin it rong. When he said, 'just in case I get to go to heaven.'

"Let's see here, you said "if JD is right, deeds don't get you into heaven. Belief in the right thing does""

Yes, that's exactly what you theology is, that faith alone and not works get you into heaven. Are you too stupid to even understand your own theology? Where did you pull your ideas from and why do you believe them if you don't even understand what those ideas are? What kind of an idiot does that?

GCT said...

BTW, photogr, you may not have meant that you do good "just in case there's a heaven," and if that's the case I would appreciate a clarification.